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@benroyce I just hope these two don't fuck everything up. I don't trust either one of them.

@RegGuy

why don't you trust them

if in terms of "i don't trust any politician", ok

but in terms of "who is the most sincere on the stage of politicians in front of me" you have to admit, AOC and Bernie are the most trustworthy on those terms

centrist dems are impotent pisswater

centrist GOP are an extinct species

and MAGA is radioactive evil

so there's your choice

@benroyce @RegGuy

AOC voted against the rail workers labour demands in the US. I get that she's all that can be hoped for, and i loved her at first but not so much after that.

@benroyce @RegGuy

I never said don't vote for them. If I lived in the US they'd be the only ones I'd be voting for, but I don't think there's anything idealistic or toxic about viewing people in reality and not as saviours.

@RobotDiver @RegGuy

nobody serious does

some do: they expect politics to be like an exciting movie romance with perfection

and it's that "concern" that is the gateway to rejecting a left candidate because their precious feelings are shattered that the left candidate is not perfect

so we're concerned about the same problem, hero worship, but for the left, disillusionment, the emotional twin of hero worship, is what leads people to not vote

these are emotionally addled fools

@benroyce @RegGuy

I think it's more complicated than that though, when you dig into it. I think, at least in Canada, we live under the delusion that we have a true democracy. We don't, but it doesn't mean I'm giving up my right to vote, because the alternative is even worse. Sheldon Wolin wrote a lot about it. Here I vote for the party least likely to ruin or unalive my friends and vulnerable people, but I know that none of them have my best interest at heart because they are all part of a network of corporate interest, because literally no one can make it to their places without wading into it. Dems are better than fascists, but if you are just voting or not voting, you are still allowing a broken system to govern you and not in any layperson's best interest.

I almost had hope for the lack of voter turnout the last election because it indicates some serious unrest and desire for change, but you can't just vote or not vote and then not do anything and that's the real problem. You either become an active participant in change and your governance or the monster eats you at the end of every choose your own adventure.

@RobotDiver @RegGuy

You have to vote

Always

Not voting just results in every concern you put forth getting worse

Voting gets you shit, but at least slightly better than before. And that is all you will ever get in this world, in any democracy that could ever exist

I would criticize your words by saying you think some outcome is possible that is never going to be possible

@benroyce @RegGuy

and I would strongly suggest digging into some Wolin sometime.

@RobotDiver @RegGuy

I dislike "go read this" comments because this is a social medium and you should be able to articulate a defense of your position in 2-3 sentences

Not voting gets you worse. Voting gets you better.

That is all you will ever get in this world

now and forever

in this democracy, that democracy, or any democratic form of govt you can possibly conceive of

there is no better deal

@benroyce @RegGuy

Not voting absolutely gets you worse. Voting gets you less worse. Now and until you try to reform your government, and that is decidedly what he talks about.

@benroyce @RegGuy All I'm saying is there is far more at play than democracy and no democracy, but it's takes a book or two of digging into it and I couldn't fit it all in a social media post.

@RobotDiver @RegGuy fair but I'm not going to let anyone speak of any remote even theoretical value in not voting

I don't care how many volumes you bring forth, the way of not voting is straight to fascist hell, and I will never ever shut up about that

@benroyce @RobotDiver @RegGuy Also some see not voting as a principle thing whereas I see it as a refusal to accept responsibility thing.

Both choices are "bad" so you "aren't going to get your hands dirty" (legit quote) by voting for the one who will kill fewer people.

That's not principle, that's refusing to accept responsibility for even the simplest of functional choices, and if you're not willing to do take absolute least-effort action IN THE WORLD to change outcomes, I don't think you're willing to do a single goddamn other thing either.

...except energy-vampire everyone else in sight to keep _them_ from doing anything _either_, so that nothing gets done, and your inaction is validated.

@moira @benroyce @RobotDiver @RegGuy Some might *claim* to be not voting as some sort of principle, but back in the real world approximately 100% of people who claim they don't vote "on principle" are lying and the truth is that they are simply too ****ing lazy to get their arses down to the polling station.